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發表於 2006-1-13 06:37:17
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林宗毅兄在 AVS forum 的 HD80/81 討論串:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=628036
01-09-06, 01:00 AM #1 (Print)
TzungILin
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Taipei, Taiwan
Posts: 273 Optoma HD81 1080p DLP official discussion
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Dear AVS,
First of all, let me say, "Thank you!" to all the folks that stopped by Optoma booth, I had a great three days so far meeting up with David Bott, Greg Rogers, Darin, and many others. It was fun and a pleasure talking to you all.
I've seen many CES comments, and many more questions or confusions over HD81, so I think since it's officially announced at CES, there is press release that people can find, why don't we create an official discussion link and make it sticky?
Let me simply write down the "facts" hopefully to clear out some confusions.
1. It is a true 1920x1080 DMD, 0.95", same as Sharp/SIM 2/Projection Design were using and showing at the show.
2. The image was on 135" Studiotek HD130 screen.
3. I was preparing to show D-VHS/DVD running through HD3000 video processor box then to HD81, but the Optoma show manager decided that it is easier to show a loop of trailers so that no maintenance is needed.
4. The four trailers are: Fastest Indian, Cars, Over the Hedge and Narnia. All 1080p and can be found on apple web page. I think Darin was saying that he is going back to download those, and compare on his Ruby. Let's wait for his comments.
5. It does not have lens shift, we decided to hit the market early and at the right price point, and have more people to enjoy it, hence we use the platform of our other SX+ DLP platform, the same 0.95" optical system, EP910.
6. The throw ratio is about 1.8 to 2.2:1 (about), the offset is 27% (of vertical height), sorry that this may not fit everyone's installation.
7. HD81 is a 2-piece architecture, MSRP $9999 comes with an external scalar box, powered by Gennum and a dedicated video enhancement chip. This dedicated video chip will allow users to enhance even more after Gennum does the 1080p conversion.
8. The scalar box comes with 3x HDMI, 2x BNC, 2x YPbPr, 3x Composite/S-video and one VGA. The box will send HDMI out to HD81 projector body, and a RS232 to command projector.
9. The scalar box is similar to the one being used on the three BigVizion 80"/90"/100" RPTV that were shown at the show, we fed 1080i YPbPr and the box upscale to 1080p and show on BigVizion. Those who are questioning about the scalar box can use the images on the BigVizion as a reference.
10. I've shown the special features designed in the scalar box to a few people, Darin included, the new and unique features should please many hard-core video fanatic.
11. Many people commented the image was very bright and strong intensity on the 135" screen, I measured the light output, for the demo unit, after calibration, shows a 900+ ANSI lumen. We will add IRIS to HD81 to allow people to vary the light output and increase the contrast ratio.
12. the demo room had some ambient light coming from the trade show floor onto the screen, unfortunately, washing out a bit on the dark scenes.
13. I've met many people who returned for the 2nd or 3rd times just to see the demo again, and compared to TI booth's demo (who also used a different Over the Hedge trailer). It's good to see everyone's smile after the demo!
That's about it, welcome to write your comments here and discuss HD81 here.
I'll dig out the press release later, and add it to this link.
Can we make it sticky? Again, thanks for everyone who stopped by, it was a great show!
宗毅搭飛機回到台灣時, 已經累積了 200 posts 等他回覆~
其中很多是 H7x 系列等待升級的用家, 及對 HD81 的 PQ 有濃厚興趣的潛在買家;
有很多對於 HD81 沒有 Lens Shift, 同時有著 27 degrees 的 Offset 大為失望.
所以 宗毅兄又 Po 了下一篇:
Today, 11:26 AM #218 (Print)
TzungILin
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Taipei, Taiwan
Posts: 273 O.K., I'm back! (after sleeping the whole day yesterday ...)
Before I begin to answer most of the questions, let me say first, that there are too many questions for me to answer in one day, so I'll go through page by page. Secondly, I'll try not to repeat answer the same concern (like offset), I am feeling bad for those that cannot do without lens shift. And lastly, let's us all be reason and well-tempered on isssues that not everyone agrees upon. No need to attack a brand and no need to defend a brand, just express your concerns, disappointments, encouragement or disagreement, and let us stay on the focus on a HT projector, picture quality, video processings, etc.
For this first post, let me address the some of the most-asked issues:
1. Offset & lack of lens shift
Being a company which developed H56/H57/H30/H31, H77/H79, we know the nice thing about lens shift. But when we faced the question of building a 1080p from the ground up with lens shift, but will take a long development time or do we first use an existing platform with good performance but with a faster schedule, we decided to go for quicker schedule and also to hit a better competitive pricing. If we delay the schedule in order to build a brand new engine, optics and ID, when we have it, competition may already be ready to launch their second gen., then why bother? Optoma is a small company, unlike most competitors, which are all big and powerful, they can sell a few high price 1080p with a delayed schedule, take the loss while their main business is still making money (well, be it true or not). We always need to stay agile and competitive all the time since projection is our main business. So, a decision was made that to make the best out of an already working and good performance platform as soon as we can (if TI can speed up a bit). That's the story of HD81. As many of you know that Optoma has been trying very hard to create good looking HT projectors, be it telecentric engine (the one that do lens shift) or non-telecentric engines. On HD81, my job is simply to make it look unique and good, next to competitions, based on the given platform and all the conditions/issues that I have. CES demo is just our first step, we still have months ahead to make it even better.
That being said, (and since HD81 is schedule to hit the market in Q2), with HD81 showing a good demo at CES (no tricks or a 3-chip hiding beneath the small package), we are on to next year product planning, with non-telecentric HD81 to hit, what would be next then? But, the new platform/optics and the resulted system will be higher price than HD81. So, we will have toys for every tastes. So please skip the lens shift issue, and let us focus on more the heart and soul in HT projector --> the color, the picture depth, the balanced design of brightness/contrast.
2. How to have a 120" in a 8' ceiling?
Thanks to Bob, who has done an excellent job explaning how to fit a big screen in 8' ceiling. Here is my take, very similar to his, actually.
120" is a big screen for many people, of course, the 135" we showed at CES is even more "theater"-like, but 120" 16x9 is a mighty image for most folks. So, how can HD81 work for 120" in 8' ceiling? An 120" 16x9 diagnal screen has 60" height, with offset, let us say it's 18", if a flush ceiling mount takes 4", it's 82" in total so far. 8' ceiling is 96", so there is 14" at the bottom for the lower edge of the image to the floor, for center speaker.
If one hides the speaker behind the screen (with special screen of course), then one can even put a 135" image in 8' ceiling (4 + 67 + 20 = 91" total). Keep in mind that when we sit down, the eyes to the floor is about 1 meter height, 3', we want to have the screen center close to the same height as well for easy viewing. One does not want to raise the neck or eyes to watch movies for >2 hours.
So, it's still possible to create moderately big screen in 8' ceiling.
For those with 7' ceiling (84" , one can still have 120" (82" needed) if one hides speaker in the back of the screen. Or the method that Mr. Wigggle proposed that someone actually did a HT1000 install in a 7' ceiling space.
Hopefully, with these two issues explained, we can now focus more on other important issues. And thanks to those who were encouraging us (not just myself, but Optoma in general) or defending me, I'm really quite open to criticism and suggestions, I myself is a HT lover, I can understand the frustration and disappointment, so, that is fine for me. But please let us not be buried by one issue, then we will get no where. There is a MyAV forum in Taiwan with a tougher crowd out there (many maligned attack and so on), and I'm surviving O.K.
I'll address other issues, page by page, in separate posts. Thanks.
之後, 說了原本他準備的展示片段, 及沒有播出的原因;
又說, 只有台北的 MyAV 會員才有機會共襄盛舉! Good, copy 下來做證據, 網聚是非辦不可了:
Today, 03:03 PM #226 (Print)
TzungILin
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Taipei, Taiwan
Posts: 273 Quote:
Originally Posted by TzungILin
For those that could not make it, here are some photos of the HD81 demo (from a Japanese website ) with the clips Optoma used:
First demo clip is Chronicle of Narnia:
Boring Q&A aside, let us have some fun here.
Many have commented that the Narnia trailer is what makes HD81 demo so impressive. There are some interesting observations, let me share with you:
1. Many people who stopped by told me that this demo looks much better than what they saw in theater.
2. So I finally went to see the movie last night (after my long sleep to recoup myself), to my astonishment, the movie looks so different than the Apple trailer! Like one noted before the Red in the theater is more deep red (more like dark USC crimson) than the HD81 which is more vibrant. I guess this is the differences in transfers, the theater film is transferred in a warm hue (maybe 5500, not D65?), but the Apple trailers is more toward D65?
3. The noises that some mentioned, I think maybe from the source? as I also saw that, but that dark noises were not present in other segments, Over the Hedge, a computer animation, has lots of black, too, but no obvious noise. On the gray scale pattern we looked at before going to CES, there is not noises that we can detect. I'll check the trailer on other display to judge this noise issue.
Like I said, when I was preparing for CES demo at Taipei, I've extensively look at HD81 on several different sources, and I picked out the followings that I wanted to show:
1. Ricky Martin performance in Victoria Secret 2005. This is a 1080i very dark video, with Ricky singing "Dropping on me!" (what does it mean anyway!?) and latin beauties dancing around him. In this segment, there is so much black and dark details (the audience sitting down the stage), it's a good demo for black level and contrast.
2. VS 2005 last segment "I love Candy!", very colorful scene and beatiful curves. Marnatz was showing this on their Plasma in CES. But image it on 135" 1080p image!!! It was really eye candy!! Even though I'm on diet, I'll try some of the candy any day, any time.
3. Jay Leno interviewing Dennis Richard. Before I know it's Dennis, I only saw a beautiful blonde in her 30' with tight black/beige dress that looks astonishing in Jay's 1080i setup, the texture feeling on the leather sofa, the spekles on Dennis's neck, her golden hair is like shining golden silk in HD81's intense light!! I thought to myself, where do we have this beauty that I don't know of. Then my US colleage told me that she is Dennis, and was 4 month after her giving birth to her child, I was like, Uh!? My jaws are dropping to the floor, she is so good looking and seems to happy. I've watched her from Starship Troopers to Wild thing and to the forgetable 007 flick, she was never this good looking, ever!
Above are 1080i source, I was also planning to show Under Tuscan Sun, for the natural shot, very film like, this will be a good demo of Gennum's 480i upconversion. When I saw HD81 in Taipei using this segment for the first time, I was like seeing the movie for the first time! The brightness brings out another layer of picture information, the whole image is very film like, with 1080p pixels to interpret the 480i DVD content.
Unfortunately, the show manager decides to use trailers, it would have been nice to show the four segments that I have chosen, the booth will be packed (not that it was not packed!) full time at CES, the charisma of Ricky, the latin dance, the VS models (Tyra, Heidi Klum, ...), Dennis and Diane, it would be fun to see them on 135" screen!! I guess I would be the only one to appreciate them!
Too bad, I will just show these segments to local MyAV forum memebers here in Taiwan.
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Last edited by TzungILin : Today at 03:17 PM.
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再來是 QQQ 問 宗毅兄, SONY Ruby VW100 vs Optoma HD81 在宗毅兄眼中的差異:
Today, 04:19 PM #228 (Print)
TzungILin
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Taipei, Taiwan
Posts: 273
Quote:
Originally Posted by QQQ:
TzungILin,
I've got a question that will add fuel to the fire . I'm sure you have seen the Sony Ruby. I'd enjoy hearing how you would describe the H81 versus the Ruby.
Thank You, QQQ,
You really cannot get enough fun, can you? Let me warn you though, you asked for it!
Yes, I've viewed VW100 in 3 occasions, first in CEDIA last year, 2nd in CEATEC at Japan, and the last time, a detailed 2 hour review in a MyAV member house, who purchased among the first batch of VW100 that arrive in Taiwan.
To begin with, VW100 is a very capable projector, it's so far THE 1080p projector to beat! I've seen JVC's HD11 and HD12 1080p at higher MSRP, VW100 is better. When I first saw it at CEDIA, I said to myself, and may even posted back in AVS forum that its image gives me a feeling of DLP's HD2+ level performance (DC2 level). Then of course, I read Greg Roger's review, and was surprised to see the contrast ratio is close to the HD2+ DLP and even better (since HD2+ contrast is peak, while VW100 is real usage, after calibration).
Then on the detailed analysis, the 2 hour review on a 120" white wall, I came to realize that VW100 is even better, it was so smooth and ease to look at. The color is intense and deep, very film like. It certainly looks like a G90 with higher brightness only with less black level
But it has its weakness:
1. No lamp control, unless the Xenon lamp does not reduce light output along its life, this could be some issue for serious owners.
2. The auto IRIS mode kills the intensity of the normal viewing, it becomes much less "life" compared to IRIS off position. In fact, the 7 or 8 viewers there all agree that it's better to leave the IRIS at off, to have more image intensity. But this is the mode that SONY claims to have 15000:1 contrast, gregr commeted on the white compression, it is true and can be easily detected.
3. Scaling is good, but I think Gennum or HQV can do better.
4. Image is soft, maybe due to the 3panel convergence, or maybe it's inherit in the SXRD technology that is problematic.
Even with these weakness, I'm sure many 3-CRT owners will be delighted to have VW100. But what about original owners of DLP?
Then, I had the chance to tune and play with HD81 in full color and actions, I tuned as much as possible based on the given conditions and certain "goals" in mind (to look better than VW100, for one), and showed it at CES. I couldn't tell which is better, since this is very subjective, and I did not do a side by side. Darin said he would go back to download the same trailers and play back on VW100, maybe he will be the one to say how these two compared.
I can only say DLP 1080p is worth waiting for the following reasons:
1. Brightness: It provides a chance to be better in brightness than VW100
2. Image sharpness: Single chip DLP is definitely sharper than 3-chip VW100, it gives you a more "definitions" feeling.
3. Contrast and black level wise, I believe both technologies are close, we are still experiementing IRIS on HD81, so I don't have a better feeling yet. But DLP being brighter, it will give you a "perception" that its contrast is better to normal folks. To trained eyes of AVS forum experts here, they will know the differences.
4. 1-chip DLP has been under attack for its eye fatigue and rainbow, I certainly hope the dual DDP3021's much faster speed can make up some here. If like Robert Clark's observations, maybe HD81 with our current CW tuning can reduce the weakness.
So, what chance does HD81 stand to compete?
1. Brightness (as obvious in this CES 135" vs. Sony 100" at CEDIA, or was it 110"?)
2. Gennum processor with a dedicated video enhancement chip (from Japan) in a outboard scalar box for easy installation
3. variable IRIS
4. Optoma color
5. I have many ideas in my mind now after talking to people at CES, and compare the image of VW100 to the HD81 images at CES. Color and image is a mere mix and create type of thing, like cooking, the same ingredients for different chef, they may come out differently. HD81 image at CES is only our first try, with more ideas to play with and experiment, who knows what might eventually come out?
6. Improved DLP processing on rainbow and other issues people might be sensitive to.
Is it not possible to imitate VW100 image look on a DLP? I don't know, only time will tell. I know some will be laughing that one-chip could never imitate the 3-chipper. But, without trying, how does one know the extent of technology improvements and creativity? If we do, and we can offer more than just Ruby/G90 film look, but also traditional DLP bad-axx sharp and constraty look, then user can choose which to enjoy depending on the source content or their own taste. I guess as long as we are open to ideas and be more creative, we could add many differentiations to our 1080p DLP machines that can compete well against other competitors.
Did I fire up the whole forest?
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或許, 這要 JBL 大大的支援, 我們才有機會一睹最新技術間的 Shoot out.
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